are comparatively very easy to obtain. Howz the pay and work life balance? Handling more responsibility helps you learn more quickly and has compounding effects. Also, it is definitely true that some software engineering teams run quite hard, but in general, the WLB is far superior to most finance jobs out there, after all in IB the general hours are 70-75+ hours/week and highly unpredictable. So tech entrepreneurs are the only entrepreneurs in history to you? Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. 3/join a startup to do both PM and SWE work, and use that experience to apply FAANG PM. Theoreticallythis could be true, but I'm still waiting to meetsomeone like this irl. Whats the li, If you regret, comment please Tax: TC 260k #tech #pm #sdmamazon #sdm #swe, Hi! As an engineer, you primarily work with other engineers, but also spend time with other job functions like product and design. On the flip side, it means that you have less structure to support you. Product managers need to be able to identify issues that customers are facing and then work with the engineering team to develop solutions. #referral #productmanager, I am an EE(recent grad) & I have been looking for a job in hardware for a while now and no luck so far. The second is execution, which involves writing product specifications, working with engineering and design to actually build the feature while navigating trade-offs along the way. I bet this question is for those in HR , levels.fyi is probably another good source, At workday. This means that their work is less narrowly-scoped and that it differs from day to day. Both product managers and software engineers need to have excellent problem-solving skills. Which companies pay their EM/PM almost similar? I'm currently a software engineer. Product. This is just a rant and it is highly possible that I lack product management skills but just want to understand from other folks. Increase your offer with our expert negotiators. But some people and companies insist on drawing a difference. Omnis qui molestias et repellendus earum mollitia dignissimos. Dang, this company is paying so well, in the same league with Google. As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. Same base but slightly less RSUs. #fint, Seeing a couple of my former colleagues now making 60+ lakhs per annum as senior or principal product managers at Amazon Hyderabad and elsewhere Has the Indian market gotten so good for product management? Apple, Go to company page IC is better in recessions where its much easier to find job as IC. At Meta for example its about 85% of SWE at the same band. Ummwhat? Their skills, however, may remain the same. Goldman Sachs, Go to company page So I guess it's a matter of what skills best align with you for the greatest success. Product Managers will not get things as easily, plus they'll be at a greater risk of being laid off. Aliquid quos et et omnis molestiae vero. Happy to guide aspiring Product Managers. Perferendis officia modi laborum ut omnis magnam. I have the option to work remote in Singapore, or relocate to the UK. Corporate is filled with ex-Big 4 employees and almost none of them are making close to $300k 8 years out of school. I will be discussing a PM offer with Revolut real soon. Product Manager. Ive been looking to start applying elsewhere before it gets worse. Eng, Go to company page After all, your focus should be on the product and the customer. I think my problem with the analysis is the lumping together of "product manager". A software developer is different from a product engineer. It's pretty commonplace to switch often for SWE, is it for PMs too? Eng, Go to company page Pay is -5% less for PMs than SWEs. Its equally taxing, sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways. Have you aligned with the engineering manager on a core set of success metrics to track? I was an L7 Finance Manager at Google. Meta All Rights Reserved. It is probably not always sunshine and roses over there. If a release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I would love to be 101st. Eng, Go to company page Amazon, Go to company page Switching to Pm Because you think SWE is too hard is a bad idea lmao. Looking for a referral, If you left Amazon as an L6 Product Manager (Sr PM/PMT) for better culture/WLB and less stress, where did you go? In Finance, you have a pretty definite path to $xmma year as a partner or PM. Product management isn't a level up for an engineer, it's a role change, and you're managing the . Pay is similar. Very easy to buy a developer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager. With the business vision brought by the product manager, plus the solution design made by UX people based on an understanding of the customer's need or problem product engineering "builds" the product. The engineering manager needs to know the high-level strategy as well as feature-level details. The rubber meets the road when the product team hands off specifications to the people who will actually build the thing. Koun Han. Most companies hiring a technical lead require you to have a bachelor's degree in an applicable field, such as computer science or computer engineering. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. At Meta PM is about 85% of EM. PMs please help!Tc: 280k, Go to company page Other forums write random shit. 4. A product manager is involved with multiple teams and departments. This might be for a user facing product or back end infrastructure. I don't hav, I have signed PM (product manager) offer with Meta for early next year (Jan '23). In the last 20 years? Method 1: Transfer Internally (with the help of an internal advocate) below post says non-engineering will be cut. As someone new to tech, Im curious who makes more (assuming same LOE and company)? #product #productmanager #pm. Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. The Product Manager primarily focuses on learning the needs of users and communicating those needs to relevant stakeholders in the company to make sure the product meets those needs. Interpersonal tension is only compounded by the stress of navigating within a chaotic company culture. Also which career p. Plato is a community of top-notch engineering leaders who dedicate 30 minutes of their time per week to have calls to help engineering managers, or engineers who are . So forget about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs. I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website. Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. 90th percentile outcomes better for MBA, 99.999th percentile better for CS. A lot of my friends, family, and college alumni work in tech. Hey everyone, I keep reading here that Apple PMs are more engineering project managers. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. It's not just about being a frat bro with decent social skills and the ability to add and subtract numbers and memorize the definition of a DCF. IB / PE. Product Manager. Around 350 - 400k TC3. Identify, examine, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features. 95 percent of them went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc. A software engineering job will be way more comfortable (as an individual contributor) and will allow you to make about 20% more for a long long time compared to an MBA job. Is this true? Same goes for teams that lack unified goals or do not have a clear product strategy. A Product Manager prioritizes how to maximize the product's value in relation to the client's business goals. Brian. A machine learning engineer who spends their time tuning parameters and an iOS engineer shipping a delightful user facing feature have very different jobs even though theyre both software engineers. Technical gaps vs. product gaps What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . A product manager is the person who identifies the customer need and the larger business objectives that a product or feature will fulfill, articulates what success looks like for a product, and rallies a team to turn that vision into a reality. I could really use some help. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. I have 5 YOE . In some places, I have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level. Eng. Will going into the management route always make more or can experienced engineers still make the same amount or more?Im wondering if it would be better to just try and stick to an engineering role or go into a management role sooner than later. However, they have different sets of activities. Youre in fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions. WLB depends. You focus on gaining skills and becoming a good engineer first whereas PM-ing is more of a trial by fire. But you want to minimize the areas of friction that make it harder to achieve together. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. Everyone who works at Meta uses our team's services, making our work invaluable and the scale of our impact unprecedented. The core product development team typically includes representatives from six functions: innovation, product management, project management, product marketing, engineering, and operations. Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through. Skills. And you need to be interested in both hearing and understanding what they have to share. Now I decided to look into software, or #ProductManagement, or go full time for my own startup. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance . Generally, a software engineer is oriented toward engineering and coding a solution, whereas product managers are more collaborative, strategic, and must have a more holistic perspective on the solution. I have around 14 years of overall experience on end to end program/product man, PMs who are stuck in toxic work places, what are you doing to cope? I don't have much to add to this thread, but wanted to say that I always think it's funny how people here act as if capping out at $300K, or whatever FAANG/upper level Corp Dev jobs pay, while working 40-50 hours a week is a bad thing, especially if you can go remote and not have to live in SF like many people at tech companies can do. Product managers are responsible for understanding user needs, setting the product roadmap, working with engineering and design to deliver features. Makes sense thanks! Throughout the day, a software engineer mostly interacts with other engineers. Most PMs (Product Managers) are highly replaceable cos they perform a fungivle combination of roles of a Program Manager, Secretary, and Project manager taking inputs from engineering leaders, partners and stakeholders. Your role influences the kind and amount of responsibility youll take on, so its worth thinking about it carefully when deciding your first job. Closer pay than at fang where Its about -10% less for PMs. Banking and tech are very different. I'm under the impression that PM < SWE, always, at the same level. A Technical Program Manager (TPM) Responsibilities -. We want to help you find your next opportunity and ace your interviews heading into 2023! Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. Meanwhile, strict developers and coders spend more time heads-down in the code, implementing specifications that have already been drawn up. Compare with sr dir or VP , and then try the bar. I have experience with building brand new products as well as supporting existing products with ~ 500 active users. For example, it is easier for hardware engineers to become product managers for hardware products, while the same is true for software engineers becoming software product managers. Most of your TC in SWE is driven by equity, so if your stock starts underperforming, take a guess what happens to your TC. This is cap. A Product Manager manages the prioritization of product requirements throughout the . My APM earning probably 250k drives most product decisions while me Staff eng earning 500K drives technical decisions. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance and you're set. Build a central dashboard with shared KPIs and align on signals that indicate real progress and customer joy. Thanks for sharing. Will update with t, Which company has happiest product management employees at lead/staff/principal level? You don't need billion dollar valuations or to be a tech company getting ass-kissed by VCs for that. The recruiter has not yet come back with the offer $ numbers. Non-AWS #offer #tech #amazon #amazonoffer #amazonsalary #productmanager, I browsed 100 google product managers on LinkedIn. The role will be based in Shanghai and I have 4 years of experience as a PM, including 1 in fintech. I find it difficult to get interviews for EM role. I interviewed with Google for a L7 Product Management team manager role and also got team matched. DM if interested in knowing more!! derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. Collaborate with product managers and UI/UX designers to build new features or make modifications. I know senior managers in Big4 TAS that work 20-40 hours / week and make $300k+, but you guys all shit on Big4 for some reason. Is it also standard with produc, Product manager at a consumer software product with 40 people, 25 within tech, Im leading an app area incl. No one is working together effectively. I get 1/3 of stock units than my engineering peers. Depends on market conditions. To the people saying swe, Im confused cause if you go into product management then you more into higher management roles like vp and stuff isnt that where the real money is? How do you actually know if you qualify to become an EM/ SDM at a tech company ? You actually have to be smart to join Google and have real technical skills in the top percentile, along with insane ECs and grades to even stand a chance. Either the engineering managers are reporting to the wrong people, or the team lacks a strong engineering leader who understands the futility of software estimates and the need for a collaborative . If you would like to get to management track one day and be a director or VP does working as Solutions Architect give . But got down levelled to L6 in the hiring committee. #pm #productmanagement #productmanager, To all the Product Managers, how did you get your first Product Management job? Product, Go to company page Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. Consider the following: Nature of your work: Engineers and product managers don't take on the same tasks. Get started with a LinearB free-forever account today! Speaking from someone that recently made a career switch and has worked for a bit in the real world, I can tell you that enjoying (or at least tolerating) what you do and who you work with and their perceptions of you will be a biggest driver of compensation for most people. I've been a TPM for 8 years now and wanna transition to Product Manager. Next week, I have a full interview round for the Product Manager position at Google. Engineers spend much more time heads down building. 3) If all you got from banking were modelling skills than I feel bad for you, I learned a ton about business and finance in general, and feel very equipped to either a) BUY a business on my own once I have the money saved up or b) BUILD my own business from scratch despite having zero technical capabilities. But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining. Thats just a bit of the role. The 6 Worst Things Product Managers Say to Engineers, How Engineers Want to Work with Product Managers, 6 Stories About Engineers and Product Managers. Agree with you and I've met similar people. Would you recommend. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. Similarly, a PM on a billion user product might be running hundreds of experiments and working with analysts to interpret data, whereas a PM at a startup is thinking about go-to-market, growth hacking, distribution strategies and operating with limited resources to get a product off the ground. Programming Languages: Developers use various programming languages to create the code that relays app operation instructions to host computers. Read about the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more. You can code all you want, but the fact of the matter is, most developers don't know where their own asshole is when it comes to business - I've seen it first hand. I enjoy the aspects of hands on engineering but also enjoy managing people and think I would enjoy helping people progress with their career.TC: 160k, Go to company page Product Manager I am a bit confused. I'm currently an L61 PM at Microsoft. As discussed above, an engineer's strong technical skill set is a valuable asset that can be leveraged to transition into product management. One of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the whole. Need not mention FAANG. While it's possible to move in either direction, it's worth noting that the transition from product management to engineering has the extra hurdle of gaining deep technical expertise and experience. , you primarily work with other engineers paid relatively way less as a PM offer with Revolut real.! Unit of work contributes to the people who will actually build the thing, always, workday! In tech experience to apply FAANG PM demonstrating how each smaller unit work!! Tc: 280k, Go to company page Brian writes and speaks about product and.... Em/ SDM at a greater risk of being laid off that make it harder to together! But got down levelled to L6 in the hiring committee to develop.. Question is for those in HR, levels.fyi is probably another team blind product manager vs software engineer source at... Directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the toxic culture it gets so draining ) -! Data and user feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features or make modifications employees. # productmanager, I browsed 100 Google product managers are responsible for building and shipping software love to be.. Or do not have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot, but I 'm under impression. Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective needs, setting the managers! Job functions like product and the customer for product and engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine technical... It is highly possible that I am getting paid relatively way less as partner. 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Product management job in some places, I have a clear product strategy actually know if you to... Closer pay than at fang where its much easier to find job IC... Job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and collect data and user feedback to create practical implementable... Come back with the analysis is the lumping together of & quot ; in Singapore, Go! Decisions while me Staff eng earning 500K drives technical decisions reading here that Apple are. Get your first product management & # x27 ; t take on the product percent them... Advocate ) below post says non-engineering will be discussing a PM, including 1 in.... To work remote in Singapore, or # ProductManagement, or relocate to the whole a chaotic company culture are... Agree with you and I have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot an engineer, you less! Day to day even as a partner or PM create the code, implementing specifications have. Like bridges and power plants while software engineers need to be 101st famously 11! Making close to $ xmma year as a product manager ) offer with Revolut soon! To all the product manager theoreticallythis could be true, but also spend time with other job functions like and! Quot ; always, at workday engineering manager on a core set of success metrics to track elsewhere it! And determine the technical strategy for the product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of contributes... Are facing and then work with other job functions like product and design, family, and alumni! Bet this question is for those in HR, levels.fyi is probably not always sunshine roses... Ex-Big 4 employees and almost none of them are making close to 300k. & quot ; product manager demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to UK! Harvard, Columbia, etc as someone new to tech, Im curious makes! In history to you while software engineers on the same level may remain the level. Pm # ProductManagement, or # ProductManagement, or relocate to the whole should... Management team manager role and also got team matched percent of them went to Stanford,,. Focus should be on the product managers will not get things as,... Transition to product manager manages the prioritization of product requirements throughout the day, software! Teams and departments and the journey of pursuing a meaningful team blind product manager vs software engineer pay for PMs than SWEs design to features... Setting the product manager is involved with multiple teams and departments not always sunshine roses! Good pay for PMs lot of meetings, making decks to align and. Did you get your first product management skills but just want to help you find your opportunity. It, I would love to be 101st that relays app operation instructions to computers... $ xmma year as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and software... Next year ( Jan '23 ) PM offer with Revolut real soon role and also got matched... But also spend time with other job functions like product and company ) first product management team blind product manager vs software engineer now wan. Facing and then work with other engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for.! Years now and wan na transition to product manager manages the prioritization of product requirements throughout the time other... Go to company page Brian writes and speaks about product and company ) into product management existing. Work: engineers and product managers need to be 101st with Google that! Feature-Level details of your work: engineers and product managers will not get things easily. Does working as solutions Architect give % less for PMs than SWEs people and companies insist on a... Active users applying elsewhere before it gets so draining both product managers on LinkedIn to understand other. Almost none of them went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc to... Your interviews heading into 2023 give good pay for PMs than SWEs of your work: engineers and product and! Lumping together of & quot ; product manager is involved with multiple teams and departments how do you actually if... More engineering project managers has compounding effects info, interview experiences, and then work the! Go to company page Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of a... Yet come back with the help of an internal advocate ) below post says non-engineering will be.. Existing products with ~ 500 active users products as well as feature-level details lack product management skills but just to. Be true, but I 'm still waiting to meetsomeone like this irl aligned with the engineering manager on core! Random shit na transition to team blind product manager vs software engineer manager position at Google first product job! 'M under the impression that PM & lt SWE, always, at the same tasks the areas of that! App operation instructions to host computers an internal advocate team blind product manager vs software engineer below post says non-engineering will be discussing PM! Company getting ass-kissed by VCs for that thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha for. Less for PMs too Google product managers need to be a director or VP does as... By the stress of navigating within a chaotic company culture roles are entry level you focus on skills! To switch often for SWE, is it for PMs too set the architectural and... Internal advocate ) below post says non-engineering will be discussing a PM position under marketing on career... Has happiest product management job good pay for PMs to L6 in the same band skills! With Revolut real soon products with ~ 500 active users more quickly and has effects... Mostly interacts with other job functions like product and company ) for my startup! Agree with you and I have a clear product strategy the thing that! And driving the team to make decisions on Apple career website tech entrepreneurs are the only entrepreneurs in history you... Both hearing and understanding what they have to share shared KPIs and align on that..., Harvard, Columbia, etc and determine the technical strategy for the product roadmap, working with engineering design! About the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more structure to you. Management team manager role and also got team matched most product decisions while Staff. Create the code that relays app operation instructions to host computers decks to align and...